Episode 050 – Learn How to Effectively Create Top-notch Websites for Your Market
Welcome to Episode #050 of The Digital Insiders Podcast – Learn How to Effectively Create Top-notch Websites for Your Market
Today’s featured guest is Jon Tromans. Jon shares his years of experience in radio/TV publishing and how he shifted into the world of digital marketing. This paved a way for Jon to help marketers and website owners enhance their skills and knowledge which enables them to create a website that is designed to meet the needs of their market.
Here’s just a taste of what we talked about today:
We talked about Jon’s years of experience in the radio/TV publishing industry and what made him shift into the digital marketing world.
Jon worked in a radio company for 15 years around the late ’90s and early 2000. During those years, radio stations in the UK became corporate and were rebranded with the same name losing all their identity.
Most people, including Jon, felt disillusioned with what has happened in the industry. Entertaining people, and having fun over the radio, was slowly disappearing.
At the same time, the Internet was starting up which they did not consider as technology but another platform to publish their content. Since then Jon has been selling websites, building websites, and creating digital content for people.
Next, we tackled some of the biggest challenges Jon faced during the first six months of starting his business.
The main challenge for Jon when he was starting his business was internet speed. Back then, you’d have to get off the phone to use the internet and be able to build websites.
Another challenge for Jon was they could not do what they wanted to do on the internet like putting a TV program or a radio program on the website. The options were not available back then, compared to how easy everything is now over the internet.
And then, Jon discusses the important ways people can do to make their website better.
Jon noticed that the biggest problem of websites these days is that they don’t exactly identify the needs and wants of their customers.
A website should initially answer customers’ queries or meet their needs once they land on the page.
Putting relevant content above the fold of the website is an essential step so that people would instantly understand what the offer is without having to scroll halfway down the page.
We also discussed a few other fun topics, including:
- What does John think of image slides on some websites these days?
- We talked about some of the mistakes that people should avoid when they are creating a website for the first time or creating websites for their clients.
- Are there specific questions that we should be asking web designers before we hire them?
- Jon shared a little bit about his other marketing podcast — Lockdown Land.
- How can podcasts help small businesses and freelancers besides having something fun to do and getting to meet new people?
- What type of topics should people focus on when they are developing their social media strategy?
- Discover the lessons and values Jon learned the most from becoming an entrepreneur.
- What does Jon currently read, watch, or listen to that helps him grow as a business owner?
All that and more! But you’ll have to watch or listen to the episode to hear about those.
How To Stay Connected With Jon Tromans
Want to stay connected with Jon? Please check out their social profiles below.
- Website: www.jtid.co.uk
- Facebook Profile: www.facebook.com/JonTromans
- Twitter Handle: twitter.com/JonTromans
Also, Jon mentioned the following items on the show. You can find them on:
This is the Digital Agency Insiders Podcast. Inside you’ll learn how to build, grow and scale your digital marketing agency all from the comfort of your favorite coffee shop. Let’s get started with the show.
Tabitha Thomas 0:16
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of digital agency insiders podcast, the podcast that gives you a little inside look into how entrepreneurs have built and grow their digital marketing agencies. My name is Tabitha Thomas, and I’m your host. And I just want to thank you for being here. Hit that subscribe button and get all of our latest episodes is released once each and every Tuesday. So today I have with me Jon Tromans. Jon is a digital marketing trainer and podcaster. He’s the host of not another marketing podcast and lockdown land. He brings over 20 years of digital marketing experience to the table. He’s a pro with web design, develop design and development, SEO, project management, content creation and selling. I’d imagine he stays pretty busy. But he managed to squeeze us in today. So Jon, welcome to the show.
Jon Tromans 1:00
Thank you, Tabitha. It’s great to be here. Great, Great, Thanks for the invite. Looking forward this.
Tabitha Thomas 1:04
Super excited to talk with you. So 20 years is a long time to be in any field, but you seem to be yet keep learning and growing and diversifying yourself. So what got you into the entrepreneurial game? in the first place? Where did you Where did all this start?
Jon Tromans 1:20
It started got Yeah, it was a long time ago, I’m kind of old. It’s it’s I started in radio, working in radio publishing. And I think the word publishing is kind of like an important word to use in a way because we were creating content, which is exactly what we’re doing now on the web of creating content. And it was kind of like around the late 90s, early 2000s, when radio in the UK was becoming really corporate, every radio station got rebranded to be exactly the same name, all the identity was taken out of it. And there were a lot of us who were kind of like getting a bit disillusioned with all this because we came into entertain people we came into have fun and you know, do the whole radio thing. And that was disappearing slowly. And at the same time, this newfangled fancy thing was starting up called the internet. And we were all thinking this is cool, but we didn’t look at it as a technology. It wasn’t a technology to us, it was almost like another publishing platform. So we’ve got paper, we’ve got magazines, we’ve got TV, we got radio, and now we’ve got something else that we can actually publish on, we can put our creative juices into this thing here. And I think a lot of us moved over to it. And we built websites, we’ve we’ve sold websites, we we we made websites for other people and and that’s pretty much how it started. And I think for about probably 10, 12 years I built websites built, I like to say I build digital content for people. Okay, instead of just websites.
Tabitha Thomas 2:59
So we’re you self taught how to do website stuff, or was that something you learned along the way?
Jon Tromans 3:05
And the technical side was self taught? Yeah, obviously. Because I mean, back in 1996, that you couldn’t there wasn’t a course. Yeah, yeah, he just didn’t exist. So a lot of it was self taught. But what what you actually put on your website, the content, how you actually create this thing is very much the same as how you would have built a radio program or a television program back in the day, you are building something that is going to be useful to somebody, and that somebody wants to use as simple as that. And it was the same in radio, if you made a radio program, a TV program, and nobody wanted it. nobody listened to it, you’d be fired. Simple as that. Yeah. And is saying how many blog posts are written that nobody reads?
Tabitha Thomas 3:49
So true. So true.
Jon Tromans 3:51
Tabitha Thomas 5:01
Always a good thing is simpler is always easier, always easier, and always better people enjoy it more so. So what are some of the biggest challenges? You remember facing your first six months of starting your business?
Jon Tromans 5:16
Oh, internet speed.
Tabitha Thomas 5:20
That’s still an issue for me. What are you talking about?
Jon Tromans 5:23
Yeah, genuinely the the speed of everything it was it was absolute nightmare, because you were building websites and building stuff. And you would actually have to, you’d actually have to get off the phone, I need to dial up to go
Tabitha Thomas 5:37
I remember that, you know?
Jon Tromans 5:39
Yeah, it was just your telephone. And it was like, Yeah, I mean, I remember getting a second line into into the house,
Tabitha Thomas 5:47
Just to have internet,
Jon Tromans 5:49
Yeah, just to have internet. And then they would charge you per minute. And it would be like a huge bill, at the end of the month, there were none of these sort of, like packages available. And that sort of so I think that was the biggest that was one of the biggest problems. The other problem was that we couldn’t do what we really wanted to do on the internet. And we can do that now. So there were times when I was building websites, and particularly in the late 90s, where you think to yourself, you know, I’d love to be able to put a put a radio program on there or a TV program on there. I’d love to be able to upload, but you just couldn’t do that sort of thing. not properly. Anyway, it wasn’t available. But we can do that now. So I think Yeah, internet speed was probably the worst thing. I don’t think code, or any of the technical stuff comes into it, because we were dealing with what we had back then. So you didn’t really think about oh, my God, it would have been lovely to have had YouTube embed videos into the page because YouTube didn’t exist. Yeah. Yeah. So true. Yeah. So internet.
Tabitha Thomas 6:47
Okay. Oh gosh, I remember those days all too well, being a kid and my parents screaming at me for hanging up because I’d unplugged the phone line to plug in the internet cord, because you know, they would be all phone calling. I didn’t know it. Oh, my gosh, I remember that. So well.
Jon Tromans 7:03
My kids did that.
Tabitha Thomas 7:04
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So as somebody that’s been in websites for as long as you have and has seen the progress over the years, how, what are some ways that we can make our websites or our clients websites better? Ah nowadays?
Jon Tromans 7:19
Yeah, lots of ways. Lots of ways. I think, I think the biggest problem is always identifying what the needs and the wants of the customer is and the client is, and and thinking of every web web page that you create, as answering a question or meeting the needs of, of a person who who lands on that page. So instead of, instead of a client, going to a web developer, or an agency or something and turning around, I want you to build me a website to sell my widget. And then you just build them a website to sell your widget. And that’s it. And it’s kind of like, right, we need a picture there. We need some text there. Here’s the text. And then it just ends up a mess, instead, let’s look at the questions that people are asking online. Let’s understand what people want the journey that they want to take to buy the product at the end of the day. And let’s try and answer those questions specifically on the page. So we’re coming at everything from a different angle, instead of coming at it from a kind of like, here’s the text, here’s the pictures, knock out a WordPress website for me, please develop? Well, you know, it’s like basically just like putting all the text and the pictures into it into like a framework and hitting publish, instead of looking at it like that. We’re looking at it right. Okay, so what does the customer want from me? What do they ask what questions do they ask what do they need to know? And looking at it from that that aspect? I think that’s important. I think one really good little thing which which everybody can do with their website is to imagine you’ve got a real bricks and mortar shop. Now you might have one. And this works with products and services. So so whatever you sell, whatever you do, you can do this. And then think to yourself, when somebody comes through the front door of my physical shop, and they walk along my lovely carpet, and they come up to the counter, and they say hello, they’ll ask me a question. Now, am I answering that question on my website? Then think to yourself, if I if the only thing I could say to this person in my physical shop, was the words on my web page? Would I sell something?
Tabitha Thomas 9:31
It’s good questions to ask yourself.
Jon Tromans 9:33
Because you might when you see somebody in the shop, you might do a product demonstration, they might ask you this question after the product demonstration that you are you doing the product demonstration on your website? Are you asking that answering that question on the website, because people are typing all these questions into Google? They’re asking Alexa on their phones, all these questions. So it’s kind of thinking of the customer first and the design as such of the website. Second, I think
Tabitha Thomas 10:03
I think that’s really good. Well, yeah, starting with a framework, your foundation needs to be there before you can build something beautiful on top of the foundation. So that’s really great advice.
Jon Tromans 10:12
Yeah, absolutely. I think I’m, I think focusing on benefits and features as well. And we’ve all heard this in the marketing world before. But I still don’t think we actually do it an all full lot. It’s like blue jeans. If you take a pair of blue jeans, if you’re selling blue jeans, right, and you walk into a, you walk into a physical store and you walk into the little booth and you try on some blue jeans. What’s the first thing you do? Tabitha, when you try on those blue jeans?
Tabitha Thomas 10:37
Take off whatever I’m wearing before
Jon Tromans 10:40
You put your jeans on, you’ve tightened them up, you’re looking at the new jeans,
Tabitha Thomas 10:45
Well, then you check out your butt. I mean, that’s obviously the next thing.
Jon Tromans 10:50
Exactly. That’s what we do. We look around, and we go, Oh, yeah, that looks good. Okay, that’ll work. It’s the magic mirror. Everything looks good. But But do we say that on our website?
Tabitha Thomas 11:02
Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn’t matter if it’s got a zipper buttons or what color they are. I mean, sometimes it does. But the most part, it’s got to fit, it’s got to feel good. It’s got to make us feel good about ourselves.
Jon Tromans 11:14
Exactly. I think we need to get that sort of thing over on the website, because this is what people really want to know about a product. They don’t necessarily want a pair of blue jeans, they want a pair of blue jeans that makes them look good. Mm hmm. Okay, so it’s not like it’s just any old blue pair of blue jeans will do. It’s a pair of blue jeans that will make me look good.
Tabitha Thomas 11:33
Yeah. And feel confident? Yeah, there’s so many psychological things you could add to that. So So we talked about things to make it better. So let’s talk about some mistakes that people should avoid when they are creating a website for the first time or even creating websites for their clients.
Jon Tromans 11:49
Yeah, and I think I think, I think not putting enough above the fold. Okay, at the top of the page, sort of, not, when somebody loads a web page, whether it’s on a, on a desktop computer, or mobile phone, whatever it is, being able to understand exactly what the offer is instantly, without having to fuss around without having to scroll halfway down the page. So so we’re putting, so the page title at the top is big, and it’s bold, and it basically answers, the reason why the person land lands on the page, you might have a little bit of a subheading, you might have some little bullet points, you might have a little bit of a summary or something. So that within the space of a mobile phone screen, we can see everything that we’re going to get from this page, we know exactly what it is. And then maybe some jump links to forms and things like that. Because we don’t want to be scrolling all the way down to the bottom of the page. And then the form, the form appears, but because nobody gets to the bottom of the page. So let’s have some jump links at the top, some little call to action buttons. Let’s get in touch all these these sorts of things. So you can tap on it, and get to the form pretty easily. So I think being above the fold, and focusing specifically on that is really important. When you go into a supermarket or you go shopping, right? The stuff they want to sell you is at eye level. Mm hmm. It’s not on the bottom shelf.
Tabitha Thomas 13:20
And they pay a premium for that spot.
Jon Tromans 13:22
Exactly. So it’s kind of like thinking about above the fold is really important, because that’s what people see instantly. But also above the fold, not just on a 26 inch, beautiful Apple monitor or something, but also on a grubby little five and a half, six inch mobile phone.
Tabitha Thomas 13:40
Mm hmm. And that’s where the challenge comes in. Because then you’ve got to really funnel in and figure out what your message actually is.
Jon Tromans 13:48
Yeah, I mean, another thing which irritates me, yeah, I’m gonna go on forever with all the things that irritate me with the websites now. It’s, I mean, what do you think of sliders? Do you like image slidders? What do you think What? What’s your opinion on those? Because I can’t stand them?
Tabitha Thomas 14:06
I don’t know. It depends. I think it depends on the website. I think some of them are good, because I can get a sense for for what I’m getting into quickly by seeing the sliders. Other times. It just annoys me because I’m trying to read whatever this one is. And then here comes the next one.
Jon Tromans 14:21
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s also looking at the time somebody spends on the page. So if you’ve got like, I mean, the worst slide I saw was 27 slides, literally 27 slides with five seconds in between each slide. And the average time spent on that page was about 35 seconds. Wow. So nobody saw past slide five or six or something like that ever. And, and, and in the background. The website is pre loading these, all of these slides so that they’re ready. So it’s slowing the website down, yet making it look horrible. So I mean, I’m not a big fan of sliders, I’m really not I mean, if you have to have a slider, then I would say keep it on your desktop computer, your desktop, you know, version of your of your website, and maybe on the mobile side of it have a really nice static image, maybe even a static image that changes. It’s a random one. It changes the age your page loads or something that you’re not seeing the same. But getting away from this. This instant movement. This is this is scrolling. This is scrolling that scrolling. And yeah, that that’s that gets on my nerves, a little bit with with sliders, especially the ones that take forever.
Tabitha Thomas 15:35
Yeah, well, I think it’s the only time I really like them as an Honestly, this is like when clothing things are up. And I’m like, Oh, I can check out the inventory of whatever it may be. easily without having to dig through things. I can just watch it come across to be like, nope, nope, like that one. Yeah,
Jon Tromans 15:51
Exactly. You’re absolutely right. I mean, I mean, on a shop. Yeah.
Tabitha Thomas 15:55
Yeah. Yeah. It’s scenarios. It’s all it is.
Jon Tromans 15:58
Exactly. I mean, if you’re a lawyer or your your something, I mean, you don’t need a slider do you? No, you don’t. You don’t need a slide for the About Us page. No, no. There’s a label at the top, which should say someone like meet the team. And that’s how you get to it. And it’s Yeah, so I mean, I would look really hard at image sliders and how they use because they can slow a website down. And they can be just pointless if they last too long. Because naturally nobody is ever seeing them.
Tabitha Thomas 16:29
Yeah, especially after the second slide, usually after the second slide. So So is there things or questions that we should be asking a web designers let’s say we’ve got the foundation work, we know exactly what we’re wanting to say to our clients? What do we ask our web designer before we hire them?
Jon Tromans 16:46
Oh, good question. Yeah. I mean, you want to see some of their work, obviously, you want to check out some of their work. And I think one of the main things is
Tabitha Thomas 16:57
When you say check out their work, this is not like a portfolio type thing you want links to actually go and visit those sites, not just the design of it.
Jon Tromans 17:06
Absolutely. Yeah, you want to link and you want to be able to Yeah, you want to be able to do it. I think you want to ask people about but I mean, most most designers now are going to be throwing websites on WordPress, right? Mm hmm. I think it’s about 38% of the web now is is WordPress, it’s ridiculous amount, huge amount. And I think looking ask asking your web developer about what type will I But will this website still work in three years? Right. Okay. Okay. So will the theme, can you still update the theme? in three years? Can we still update the plugins you’re going to use in three years?
Tabitha Thomas 17:48
Jon Tromans 17:49
Okay. Because you can end up in a situation where you’ve bought a theme from themeforest, or something for $19.95 cents that’s been made as a computer sciences project. And you don’t know that. You don’t know that, right? And you install it and you pay thousands for your web developer to install this beautiful theme or something and fill in all the little bits and bobs and, and make it a nice website. And then the theme developer gets a job and it never ever gets updated. And then WordPress updates, and you click update and the website breaks.
Tabitha Thomas 18:24
Oh, it’s happened? Oh, it’s happened.
Jon Tromans 18:28
So I think looking at the theme you’re going to use and is is the theme going to give me let’s say 99% of all the functionality I will ever need in a website so that only 1% of the functionality comes from plugins. So we’re looking at, we’re looking at proper themes, like maybe something like the Divi framework is one which which comes to mind or the Genesis framework was that way, where the theme has the built in slider, so we don’t have to go and get a slider plugin. The theme has integrations with WooCommerce. So we only have to go and get WooCommerce we don’t have to get 36 other plugins to make WooCommerce do what we wanted to do. Yeah, and and trying to restrict the amount of plugins, trying to make sure that the theme is bought from a company that employs people that looks as if it’s gonna be around for the next few years,
Tabitha Thomas 19:24
Or it has been around for at least a few years. And not just something that popped up yesterday.
Jon Tromans 19:29
Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes I understand why developers go to places like themeforest and there’s lots of great stuff obviously on themeforest and places like that. But I understand why why they buy these $20 $30 themes and just install it because they have to churn they have to chuck stuff out. They have to churn volume of websites end to pay the bills. Yeah, so they can’t sit there, baffling and fiddling and messing around. They literally say charge more.
Tabitha Thomas 20:01
That’s a good point to charge more money, then be able to buy bigger plugins, better plugins. Yes.
Jon Tromans 20:08
Yeah. Leave the cheap websites for people to do themselves on Wix or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would definitely say when you’re talking to a web developer, ask them about what’s going to happen in the future? You know, is there a good chance? I’m gonna have to get this website redesigned? Because if I, if I try and update WordPress to 5.5 coming out soon, I try and update. Is it gonna break? Yeah. Yeah.
Tabitha Thomas 20:36
Good point. Good point. So what is your take on content marketing? And how can it help the average small business? So you talked about websites being basically content marketing? So let’s go down that hole?
Jon Tromans 20:50
Yeah. I mean, content marketing, in its in itself is is everything we do on the web, what we’re doing right now is a piece of content marketing. And whatever you do on YouTube is a piece of content. When you create something that’s creative, or you create any sort of piece of content at all, and you put it on the internet, put it on, whether you put it on Facebook or anywhere, it’s a bit of content marketing, we’re trying to attract search results, we’re trying to attract term results from a for advertising. So we’re trying to we’re trying to bring people in from from a Google ad, or a Facebook ad or something onto a landing page, and help them do something with us, help them help us get some engagement. Content is absolutely everything. But again, we always have to think about the pre content. So it’s like, it’s what is it people are asking for? What do they need to know? And then we create it, because we can all sit there and think about Oh, that’s a great idea. That’s a fabulous idea for a blog post. I’m going to write that now. And I’m going to spend three days writing this fabulous blog post. Doesn’t it look beautiful? I you know what, I’m going to hire a graphic designer to make me some graphics, I’m going to spend money. And then you find out that nobody actually wants that question answered. The customer doesn’t, because in a sense, we are not our customers, you are not your customer, I’m not my customer. So we need to listen to what they want. We need to divide our keyword research and look at the searcher intent side of things. So that we’re not just sort of like building a transactional website witness not trying to sell people things we’re trying to, I don’t know, trying to give them a lot of information, give them a lot of education as well. I do some work with a company that sells kids bikes, small kids bikes, okay. And and they have a great piece of content on their website that talks about when you’re teaching your kid to ride a bike right at the beginning, right? You go for a bike, which has stabilizers or a balanced bike, right, the two different types of bikes that could teach you, they don’t mention their brand. They don’t mention their bikes, but they got some YouTube videos on the page. And they’re explaining the difference between the two types of bikes and why one could be better than the other and they let people make their own decision. But all around that content is their brand. So they’re introducing their brand name to people way before they’re ready to make the purchase. And they may never have heard of them before. But now they do. And they will remember that brand name hopefully in the future and come to it. So I think we need to look at content marketing on different levels. Information, education, little bit.
Tabitha Thomas 23:28
I was gonna say they’re educating their their potential buyers, which is big.
Jon Tromans 23:35
Yeah, absolutely. And I think looking at the structure of a piece of content as well. So like we said before, when everything above the fold, so we’ve got a nice call to action buttons, nice headlines, nice titles, we actually answer those questions really quickly and really easily to people. And we don’t hide any of the information against, you know, fancy tablet type things, and click this tab to appear. You might need more than one page. If you’re starting to put things in lots of tabs, you might need more than one page and just keep things simple. But But I think the key thing is to think pre content. What are people looking for? What do they want is to the cut the keyword research, the phrase research, and then write the content based on what we know people are actually looking for.
Tabitha Thomas 24:27
That’s good advice. Good advice. So yes, total sense. Well, we talked about, you know, podcasting being content in itself. So tell us a little bit about your podcast, you’ve got not another marketing podcast and lockdown land, which I’m loving name.
So tell me about these two podcasts.
Jon Tromans 24:45
Well, not another Marketing Podcast. I’ll sat there one day looking for marketing podcasts on Google and I got to about page 50. Oh gosh, did you know and there were still marketing podcasts. And I’m thinking to myself, Oh man, not another Marketing Podcast. So I thought that’ll do. That’ll do. And so what I wanted to try and do was create a podcast that was a little bit different to the norm. So it’s less conversational. It’s more questions and answers. It’s more get an expert on talking to them asking them a question and then get into it. There’s, it’s less conversational than than this type of gotcha sample. Yeah. And I got a little bit tired. Not not like I’ve seen yours, and they’re lovely. But I’ve seen some podcasts where this 10 minutes of self congratulatory, oh, you know, your great life solvers. Oh, you’re amazing. Oh, you’re so great. No, you’re great. Oh, no, no, but you’re great as well. And it’s like, Can we just get on with it? You’ve listened to them, haven’t you? Uh huh.
Tabitha Thomas 25:46
Yeah. Yeah. Let’s just get into the content. That’s what I came here for.
Jon Tromans 25:51
Exactly. And we all sit there again, if if podcasters watched what people did on their podcast software, right. And they hit that plus 32nd thing. So if somebody says, as soon as somebody says, Hi, welcome to the pot for 30 seconds. As it started yet, no, it’s still not started. Let’s go, oh, I’ve got it’s still not started. Yeah. And we do done that. We do that. So I think, I think, again, looking at user behavior, are they behaving and how they’re, they’re looking a pop it podcasts. And that was one thing I wanted to try and do was not, you know, just get straight in there? If Yeah, yeah. I think the podcast is pretty cool. Well, I quite enjoy doing it. Yeah, I quite enjoy doing lockdown land is is was kind of like my little project for lockdown.
Tabitha Thomas 26:40
As I say, is this new since Or did you have this name before all the Covid happens?
Jon Tromans 26:46
It was, it was kind of like a. I think it was second week in March and everything locked down. Okay. Every single contract and every single client emailed and said, but don’t want to do doing that things. We have no idea what’s happening. So yeah, let’s put everything on hold for now. And then I twiddle my thumbs for a few days and thought what what do we do with our time? So I thought one of the things I can do is a little bit more podcasting. So yes, sort of lockdown land, which will probably say it’s on a hiatus at the moment because we’re kind of not really locked down. But we are but we aren’t.
Tabitha Thomas 27:22
It’s such a limbo state right now. Nobody, nobody knows what to know or feel is where we are right now. We believe. Yeah.
Jon Tromans 27:31
But it’s kind of like looking at the things that you could have done in podcast like there’s an interview with a with an author and say, you know, you want to write a book during lockdown. Let’s Let’s write a book during lockdown. Let’s, let’s write a book. And he gives, you know, it’s an interview with him about how he wrote his book. And I think there’s a great yoga interview as well and, and five albums, you must listen to TV shows, you got to listen to that sort of thing. So the lockdown land was a little bit of fun that we put together and put out during lockdown. And if lockdown two happens, and there’ll be a second series,
Tabitha Thomas 28:05
Let’s all pray that does not happen. Please don’t let that happen.
Jon Tromans 28:09
Absolutely. But I think I think seriously, and since we were thinking about podcasting as content, I think a lot of businesses, a lot of organizations could could do a lot a lot of good podcasting.
Tabitha Thomas 28:22
Yeah. So that was my next question. How can it help small businesses and freelancers doing podcasts besides having something fun to do and getting to meet new people? And
Jon Tromans 28:30
Exactly, yeah, I think one great thing about a podcast is that it doesn’t have to be public. So you don’t have to put your podcast on Spotify or iTunes or Stitcher, you really don’t have to. Okay, you can keep your podcast on your website, you can keep it private, if you want to. So that opens up a whole, whole, you know, world of have different ideas for businesses. I work with a with a mortgage bank, in the UK, and we they put together a podcast, they have 130 financial advisors who sell their products, sell their mortgage products, and they produce private podcasts once a month, that help their financial advisors and sell their products better. So they can listen to a half hour interview. They’re talking to some of the sales team, maybe the CEO, maybe some big banking type people, and they’re discussing and talking about the industry. But this isn’t on iTunes and it’s not on Spotify, you can’t get it anywhere. It is only for their client, their their clients, it is only for them. And it works really well because it helps it helps their their client which is the financial advisor, sell more of their product. That’s ingenious. Yeah. So we don’t have to have everything out there. It doesn’t have to be on YouTube like this. I mean, not under the marketing podcast is just audio only. It doesn’t have to be on YouTube, it can be quite private. And I think that’s a that. I think then podcasting becomes quite powerful, really, and quite useful for a lot of niche industries. I know somebody else who does a podcast on aluminum.
Tabitha Thomas 30:17
Really, really, really, I love that you said that word. I love the way you guys say that.
Jon Tromans 30:23
Tabitha Thomas 30:26
What in the world? Do they talk? Is there enough to do a podcast on that? I mean,
Jon Tromans 30:32
I have no idea. I mean, they test they test aluminum, aluminum, they say so like, airlines will send them some of their, their sheet metal and they test it to see whether and do this. But they provide a small podcast that goes it’s not very often it’s only once every couple of months, they put a podcast together giving information on testing processes on about, you know all the medium geeks out there. Yeah, it is plenty of them. But it’s another way that a podcast, I think great thing about podcasting itself is that it’s a it’s it’s non disruptive marketing, so it doesn’t disrupt anything you’re doing. To watch a YouTube video, you have to watch a YouTube video, you can’t write an article or answer emails at the same time as watching a YouTube video, or any other type of marketing in a way, you’ve got to read some content, you got to look at some, when you’re looking at just audio on its own. It’s completely non disruptive. You can drive your car listening to a podcast, but you can’t really drive your car watching a YouTube video. You shouldn’t you shouldn’t be anyway, No. And it’s totally non disruptive. And I think that, again, puts podcasting in a very powerful place. Because people can be doing other things at the same time as listening to your your message or your brand. whatever it is you’re doing.
Tabitha Thomas 31:59
Yeah. So yeah, because I’m one of those it’s notorious was what listening to them in the car. And then on my treadmill, that’s my favorite. I can actually get housework done or get on the treadmill and do something you feel like you’re doing something productive at the same time.
Jon Tromans 32:14
Yeah, it’s I think there’s there’s some stats in the UK from, from the radio authority in the UK, which actually measures podcasting, stats and figures and things that says something like a 70 something percent of people who listen to podcasts, do it when they’re exercising.
Tabitha Thomas 32:31
Jon Tromans 32:33
Yes, I listen to it. Yeah. But I think so I think, yeah, I think for a business owning podcasts can be a really, really good idea. It also builds authority doesn’t it? It builds trust and authority. If you can see somebody and you can hear someone and you know what they sound like, and you can relate to them in some way. It builds a certain amount of trust, rather than just seeing this web page that could have been made by anybody.
Tabitha Thomas 32:57
Mm hmm. Well, and also helps you build a community within the people that you’re on your podcast with, because I’ve had that experience where people are coming to me and like, I’ve got a question about this. I know, I know, you probably know somebody and I was able to connect them to where they can help each other out. Whereas they both just talk to me, that was the only that was the only middle ground was that I interview both of them? And I thought, that was incredible. Yeah,
Jon Tromans 33:20
You don’t get that just from a website. Do you? Know, no, you get that. And I don’t think you get so much of that nowadays from social media or either. I think I think we’ve I think there’s a certain level of blindness now to social media.
Tabitha Thomas 33:34
A little bit. Yeah, yeah. Well, I feel like this is because we are in lockdown. And everything is still kind of not normal. This is a way to have almost one on one interpersonal communication. It’s like, you know, being able to go to some meeting and meet people. It’s it’s just a different way of doing that. So yeah,
Jon Tromans 33:53
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so I’d say a lot of businesses I’d look at, look at it. Definitely. I mean, it’s it’s not the easiest thing to have to put together, as you know, a podcast. Yeah, you know, you might think to it, I just need a microphone in a Mack and that will do. But there’s, you know, there’s a lot of planning, there’s a lot of strategy. There’s a lot of a lot of things you’ve got to think about behind the scenes and that So, yeah, but I think it’s good for businesses here to be able to just build their authority and build their trust, which is a huge thing you need to do when you work with online. Yeah.
Tabitha Thomas 34:28
So true. And if you’re an agency owner, and you’re looking to find clients, having guests on that are your potential clients is a great way to get in front of them and, and have some good conversations.
Jon Tromans 34:40
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I think, I think Gone are the days where we protect absolutely everything. We can invite guests on, we can invite experts. And maybe we’re not an expert in that particular field in our agency, but we get a guest on to explain something that we don’t know everything. about sort of thing. And I think that’s a really good way to, yeah, to user user podcasts. And yeah, it just, it just makes people like you a little bit more, doesn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. And I know that sounds really simplistic, but it. But when you look at sales, when you look at any type of marketing, it is the wrong thing to do right there. The basics of it, is make people like us. Mm hmm.
Tabitha Thomas 35:26
Like know, and trust. Right there. Right there. So So what type of topics should most people focus on when they’re developing their social media strategy?
Jon Tromans 35:38
I think I think again, you you split things between that they always come back to the BBC, one of the BBC was created years and years and years ago. And it’s information education, entertainment, that that’s that’s the core, you know, as a public service broadcaster, that’s what they have to do legally, by law is educate, inform, and entertain. And that’s what they do. So I think looking at all those three things. Now, for different brands, you’re going to have a different percentage of different things. So if you’re a cool funky, I don’t know. Modern, young, much younger than me marketing agency, you might want to do a little bit more entertainment. Mm hmm. And say I would cuz like I just throwing out dad jokes all day long. And everybody would just be on hitting the unfollow button really, really quick.
Tabitha Thomas 36:29
Either that or you’d have a big following.
Jon Tromans 36:32
Yeah. So So yeah, you you look at the split between what you’re doing. It’s information, education, entertainment, so you can entertain people, but you also need to inform them, of what you do, what your products are, what your services are, how you can help people how you can solve their problems. That’s what all again, which is coming back to the old keyword research, and the whole intent side of things. We’re trying to find out what questions people are asking about our product or our service or what it’s we’re doing. And we’re looking at different stages of the buying process. So so for example, it could be if you’re buying a new car, for example, you’re not just going to load up Google and just buy a new car. You know, just don’t do that. Do you think yourself Well, my car’s old and I need a new car? Right? Let’s do some research. I don’t know what SUVs are on the market. I have no idea about what brands and makes there are. So we just and then we get a piece of content that answers that question. Or we can be doing that with the the social media, and information and education or educating people on how to make their business or their organization better. have the same i think that’s that’s very important as well. But I think you have to you do have to be careful how much of it you do. Because I think you can end up just sounding like, you know, preachy preachy, yeah. Like, this is how you do this. This is how you do. And there’s a lot of brands that do that.
Tabitha Thomas 38:02
Yeah, theres a lot of brands who do that. And there’s a lot of people too, when it comes to the education side of things that are a little bit scared to put too much out there. Like if I teach you how to do this, are you actually going to name me and that is so far from the truth because you just because you teach somebody how to do something, and they understand it doesn’t mean they want to do what you’ve just taught them to do. Because a lot of times they they want to hire somebody, I want to understand it. But that doesn’t mean I want to do it.
Jon Tromans 38:29
Yeah, I work with somebody who was a makeup artist, and did make wedding makeup did wedding makeup. And we’ve been saying, for ages and ages and ages, you got to put some videos up because you’re really good. You’re really really good at what you do. You’ve got to show everyone so we’ve got to get some videos about I don’t want to show people how to do the makeup because they’ll do their own they won’t hire me. And we’re finally persuaded to put all these beautiful videos together showing how she did everything. And everybody tried it at home. That’s hard.
Tabitha Thomas 38:57
Yeah, it never goes that way. They make it look easy.
Jon Tromans 39:02
It’s like doing your own brows or something like that. It’s like the first time you do it, you think right. Okay, so I’ve got no brows and so so I need to get an expert to do this because they know what they’re doing. But no, we put these videos out we put on the website, put them on YouTube, we did some Facebook advertising and just Yeah, she was booked.
Tabitha Thomas 39:21
Yes, as our site just because you teach somebody especially that scenario when it comes to their special event. They’re not going to want to do it themselves. They’re gonna want to hire somebody because they want that day to feel special.
Jon Tromans 39:32
Yeah, absolutely. And, and the experts have always made simple things look easy. You hire a plumber or something and he comes in to fix your heating or something and he just goes Tap, tap twist, and it’s mended. And you think 150 for that?
Jon Tromans 39:51
But but it’s it’s the it’s a knowing that that’s what you’ve got to do, isn’t it at the end of the day, so you’re not going to lose business from showing people how to do things. I think you can get more business because what you do is actually hopefully quite hard.
Tabitha Thomas 40:05
And just because you make it look easy, nobody sees the years and years and years of practice and, and training and all the stuff you did leading up to that point. So
Jon Tromans 40:13
Yeah, you go on YouTube and get some brain surgery videos, and you get, oh that looks easy.
How simple is that? Well, I dare you to try it yourself. Yeah, no, no, no, thank you. No. Yeah, it’s true.
Tabitha Thomas 40:29
So true. So what lesson or value do you think you’ve learned the most, becoming an entrepreneur that maybe everyone needs to know? What’s the biggest value that you’ve, you’ve walked away from being an entrepreneur? Um,
Jon Tromans 40:46
I think, I’m was way to do
I think It’s two things. I think, I think listening to people, I think I made that I made the mistake in my 20s, I didn’t listen enough, I thought, I thought, I know that I know, this. I know everything. I know it all. And I’m just gonna blast it out there. I think listening is the one thing is listening to what people want. I think that’s, that’s kind of really important. But I think the biggest thing is kind of like a way from from work and stuff. I think, when you get to a certain stage, you, you get control of your time a lot better. Because you can start structuring how your work life works, for example. So I have an early alarm. Not too early, but you know, early ish, but I’m, I’m absolutely dead cert that I’m going to be there finishing sort of like six o’clock at the latest in the evening. Not going on any longer than that, because I’ve done a 12 hour day by then, if you can’t get what you’ve got to do into for that day into a 12 hour day, then you’ve got to hire people, or there’s something wrong. It’s as simple as that. So I think I think being able to command time a little bit better, not feeling cheated, I always made the mistake of filling my to do list for the day, with like three days of work. Yeah. And then you get a four o’clock in the afternoon, and you look at your to do list and you’ve not done half of it. And then you get stressed, you get hassled, and then you start moaning people and winging on people and you don’t become firm. And, and this is self inflicted stress. Yeah. If you fill your, your to do list with what you can actually physically do that day, then you as a person become much calmer in yourself, and you actually accomplish more by the end of it. And it takes I understand why because I mean, I had that same thing in my 30s where it was just like, you know, you’ve got to do
Tabitha Thomas 42:51
Jon Tromans 42:54
Yes. It’s almost like a badge of honor sitting there at one in the morning with the laptop open. You know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and as an old man, as you stated right at the beginning,
Tabitha Thomas 43:06
I didn’t call you an old man. Don’t call me out on that.
Jon Tromans 43:11
It’s one of the things you learned in old age that it’s better to be able to control your time. I think so. I think I think that’s the biggest thing I’ve learned from from doing all this over the years. Yeah, definitely.
Tabitha Thomas 43:22
That’s really good advice. Very good advice. So do you have any projects or anything that you’ve got coming up that you’d like to share with us anything new?
Jon Tromans 43:29
Yeah, I mean, the big thing, which I’m working on at the moment, is, it’s called a better website for a fiver.
Tabitha Thomas 43:36
Jon Tromans 43:37
So a fiver I’m pretty sure Americans use the phrase Fiver. Wikipedia. Wikipedia told me they did. So when I was when I was researching the name of a Fiver Fiverr in the UK is, is five pounds.
Tabitha Thomas 43:50
Okay, so five bucks here? Yeah, yeah,
Jon Tromans 43:53
Which was seven and a half. But, you know, with conversion rates. And, but it’s basically what I’ve tried to do is to create a big knowledge bank, it’s almost like a training course. And but it’s more of a knowledge bank. So it’s, it’s like articles, it’s training videos that I’ve built over the years. It’s it’s podcasts, it’s lots of different types of content with the whole idea is to help people make their website better. So keyword research, searcher intent, I don’t know dealing with images dealing with video on your website call to action buttons, forms, navigation, menus, all of this sort of thing. It’s kind of like telling people what the best practice is. Yeah. So even if you’re a web developer, if you’re marketer, even if you’re just a business owner, and you’re coming to get a new website built, you know, what sort of questions to ask if your web developer and if your web developer says, Well, you know what, I’ve got this cool thing where we can you move your mouse over here, and then you click that and you’re swipe across the top there, and then you click something else, and the navigation menu appears. Well then if you read my article there you’ll, you’ll know to tell the web developer to just no that just let’s have a simple navigation menu. Yeah, that actually works. So the idea was to put all of this together, and to sell it for a fiver for five pounds $7. And whatever it is cents, and make it accessible to just about everybody, everybody. And I’m a big, big fan of social mobility and offering people opportunities in life, I think, a huge, huge fan of that. And I think I get a lot a lot of students email me and say, Can I have a day of training? Could you send them a price and I just can’t afford it? They’ve been. They’ve been a marketing college, and they’ve done a job interview and the job interview says, Do you know a little bit of SEO when they think oh, no, my, you know, three, my three year degree didn’t tell me any SEO whatsoever,
Tabitha Thomas 44:30
Or even if it did, it’s changed since then.
Jon Tromans 45:55
Yeah, exactly. So it’s kinda like, so this is kind of like for everybody. So so it’s a couple of cups of coffee. That’s all it is. And you can get a huge amount of information about literally just how to make your website better.
Tabitha Thomas 46:11
I love it. I love that. Love that. So the last question that I always ask everybody on my podcast is, is there anything that you’re currently reading, watching or listening to that’s helping you grow as a, as a business owner as a human being? And it doesn’t have to be work related.
Jon Tromans 46:31
No, well do you see there again, you see, I’m really unfashionable when it comes to reading things. I did all the reading of the but I read Richard Branson’s biography in my 30s. And, and now, a lot of my watching and reading and things like that is is literally dedicated to relaxation, because I honestly believe I don’t sound like an old hippie now. But now Honestly, I honestly believe that having time on your hands and being able to control your time is more important than, than anything to be to be, quite honestly. And it improves your work. So if I if I can sit there in the evening, if I’ve had a really busy day, and I’ve done all I’ve been doing is set in front of that flaming screen, it’s just burning my eyes all day. And it’s like, just take it away. I can then go and set up my distance television set downstairs, I can watch a movie, I could just go movie or something. And and you can just relax. You can chill, you can forget about work completely. You can just
Tabitha Thomas 47:31
forget about that, I’m a huge advocate for that I call it that my brain needs to defragging. You know that’s my time for my brain to just shut down and just watch junk and not think about anything. Just let it chill.
Jon Tromans 47:44
Yeah, absolutely. So what am i watching? I’m watching outsider at the moment, which is very cool. I’m learning outsider, outsider. Yeah, it’s on amazon prime. It’s pretty cool. I’m learning an awful lot about Scottish history that I really should have been listening to at school. We didn’t really get taught much Scottish history. The reason it’s because I was brought up in England. Yeah. was probably not mentioned very often because, you know,
Tabitha Thomas 48:08
That’s my heritage there. I’ve got very much so Scottish blood in me. So I love that you’re learning it.
Jon Tromans 48:13
Yeah, well, oh, you love this? Absolutely.
Tabitha Thomas 48:15
Yeah, I was like, I’m I write that down. So I can
Jon Tromans 48:17
go check that out. And so yeah, and reading what am I reading get them on reading the stand at the moment by Stephen King. Oh, I thought I thought we got a global pandemic on the on the go. So we got to we got to read the stand, which is basically like, it looks as if it’s a manual for governments. Alright, another book. It’s crazy book. It’s, it’s and it’s great. I mean, this was written like in the late 70s, early 80s. I don’t know,
Tabitha Thomas 48:45
I just haven’t read it his
Jon Tromans 48:47
It’s so true. It’s so true. It’s scary, scary, true. But um, but yet, but but what that does, in a way, is being able to completely switch off and rest your mind and waste your brain. It gives me more energy then to be able to focus on my work during the day. So I can genuinely get more done in the 10 hours, 12 hours, I work a day, compared to what I used to do in my 30s when I was working 16 hours a day.
Tabitha Thomas 49:16
Yeah. Well, and when you’re you’re exposing yourself to something outside of work. It has a tendency to inspire other ideas that that couldn’t come unless you tried something different or watch something different or read something different. Yeah,
Jon Tromans 49:29
I think you’re absolutely right. Yeah, I think looking at what everybody else is doing. I mean, I mean, I’m not ashamed to admit that the idea for the better website for a fiver came from Mike Fardy, who’s a product productivity, just about say that person. I’m not sure of his website, but look it up and he’s got a $5 guarantee, which which I bought off him and I went through it and it’s basically very similar to what I’ve created, is that you get your time back. It teaches you how to craft your time. And how to work on your to do list and things. And it’s kind of like just a $5 guarantee you can get, you know, better control of your time for five, better website. So I mean, yeah, reading what other people do looking good and learning from other people, I think. Yeah, we’ve always done it. Certainly. I mean, the Beatles you said learn from learn from Elvis and the stones learn from the Beatles. And it’s all works down so that we’ve now got all the modern music that I don’t know.
Tabitha Thomas 50:27
So that’s our say, do you like the modern music being a former radio guy?
Jon Tromans 50:34
Yeah. Yeah. Long time ago. Yeah, I think it was. It was. Oh, man. I was still in the days of I can hear Celine Dion.
Tabitha Thomas 50:45
Well, john, it has been a blast getting to talk to you getting to know you. And thank you for sharing some of your knowledge with us.
Jon Tromans 50:54
Pleasure, I really enjoyed this really good chat. And yeah, have a nice day.
Tabitha Thomas 50:58
Yeah. So where can people get more from you?
Jon Tromans 51:02
Right, so you can find my website JT id co.uk. It’s jt id.co.uk. You can look me up on Twitter as well on there. And LinkedIn. Don’t do an awful lot on Facebook. Not really a Facebook person to be honest with you, but Twitter’s cool. Yeah. Just get in touch there. ask any questions. Say hello.
Tabitha Thomas 51:23
All right. I love it. Well, thanks again for being on.
Jon Tromans 51:27
No worries. Thank you Tabitha.
Tabitha Thomas 51:29
Alright guys, we’ll see you next Tuesday.
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